Vibrant You

High-Functioning Anxiety: Navigating Perfectionism, Codependency, and Imposter Syndrome with Alex Nashton

• Bindi Stables • Episode 48

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Alex Nashton is a coach specializing in using neuroscience and mindfulness to help you rewire your brain to find freedom from fear and become unstoppable. Alex has spent the last 10 years teaching the highly ambitious how to master their own minds. Six of those years were spent formally studying neuroscience at UCLA where she completed independent research on the relationship between mindfulness and anxiety disorders.

In addition to her one-on-one coaching practice, Alex acts as a mentor and teacher trainer for other coaches, psychotherapists, counselors, and mindfulness teachers looking to cultivate their skillset in supporting individuals with anxiety and other fear-based patterns of relating and behavior. She is endlessly inspired by the human brain's ability to change itself.

In this episode you'll learn:

  • Key signs you may be experiencing "high-functioning anxiety"
  • The psychology behind perfectionism (and the intelligence and limitations behind it!)
  • The key difference between anxiety and fear
  • What's happening in your brain in a moment of imposter syndrome
  • What co-dependency really means and how to develop healthier relationships
  • The shadows of people pleasing - why being "nice" isn't always "kind."
  • How to hack your brain for greater safety, security, and inner peace

Links:

  1. Connect with Alex on Instagram
  2. Visit Alex's Website
  3. Tune in to Alex's Podcast: Talk Nerdy to Me
  4. Listen to Bindi and Alex's previous interview "Optimizing Hormonal Health and Cognitive Wellness" 
  5. Apply for a complimentary 90-minute coaching call with Alex (on anything and everything life and love)

Thank you so much for listening. I’m so honored that you’re here and would be SO grateful if you could leave me a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, that way we can inspire and educate even more people together.

I’d love to connect with you on IG: www.instagram.com/bindistables

Visit my website for more resources and ways to work with me: www.bindistables.com

Bindi:

Welcome to the Vibrant you podcast. I'm your host, Bindi Stables, and here we talk all things wellness and vibrant living. You'll learn about integrative health, functional medicine, holistic biohacking and enjoy raw and real conversations on personal growth, mindset and motivation. Optimize your body and mind and become the happiest, the healthiest, most vibrant. You Enjoy the show. Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode on Vibrant you.

Bindi:

Today we are getting into some of the sneaky and subtle ways that anxiety can express itself into our life. So we're getting into all the subtle ways that anxiety shows up, from imposter syndrome to perfectionism, and my dear friend Alex Nashden is going to be sharing with us exactly how to support ourselves through optimizing our cognition, our mental well-being, in all the different ways. So Alex is a dear friend of mine, one of my best friends here in Bali. She's also a coach specializing in neuroscience and mindfulness to help you rewire your brain, to find freedom from fear, anxiety and to truly become unstoppable. She spent the last 10 years teaching the highly ambitious how to master their own minds. She studied neuroscience at UCLA, where she completed independent research on the relationship between mindfulness and anxiety disorders. In addition to her one-on-one coaching practice, she acts as a mentor and teacher trainer for other coaches, psychotherapists, counselors and mindfulness teachers looking to cultivate their skillset in supporting individuals with anxiety and some of these fear-based patterns of relating and behavior. So thank you so much for being here, Alex.

Alex:

I'm so happy to be here, Bindi. I'm such a huge fan of Vibrant U and it's such an honor to be on it today as a speaker, in addition to being a lover and listener of the show as well. So thanks for having me.

Bindi:

Oh thanks, han. And actually it was your podcast that brought us together as friends. So, alex and I we met at a sister circle I guess half a year ago now, maybe six months ago, and I remember you sharing in that sister circle that you had just launched your podcast called Talk Nerdy to Me and immediately when you said those words I was like we are going to be best friends. In my language, all things just health and wellness and neuroscience and mindset. So people definitely need to check out your podcast as well, which we will link up.

Bindi:

So, alex, I want to chat with you about all the sneaky ways that anxiety show up for us. So imagine with me that the woman listening, the most common woman that I get coming into my world to work with me and I'm sure that you can relate in your practice is this very type A hyper-independent, holding it all together, perfectionist kind of woman which I think conventionally, when I think of anxiety, I think of debilitating anxiety. I can't get out of bed, those things. So I'm wondering if you can just share a bit on what does conventional world and neuroscience think of as anxiety and then how do you find it show up with this type of woman or within yourself?

Alex:

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll preface this by saying that when I first started my coaching practice, I was working with individuals who had diagnosed anxiety disorders, so things like OCD and panic disorder and agoraphobia, and that was what my background and my training and my education was in and I loved it and it turns out I was really good at it. I was really good at working with people who had clinical diagnoses, and that is unfortunately, a pretty large demographic in our modern day world, but it isn't inclusive of most human beings and when we look at a lot of the psychological and cognitive issues that a lot of people struggle with these days, they are actually rooted in fear-based patterns of thinking and behavior and anxiety. They just don't show up in some of these more extreme, full-out diagnoses like OCD and panic disorder and so on and so on and so on. So one of the things that was really striking to me that I think is worth sharing with listeners is that there is a very clear distinction between healthy fear and anxiety.

Alex:

When we are reacting to something that is physically dangerous to us in the present moment, that is fear. When we have that fight or flight stress response to something that could truly harm us or hurt us. That is a very warranted and appropriate reaction to whatever is happening in our physical environment. The thing that differentiates anxiety from fear is that anxiety is the fear of a future event or uncertain outcome. So anxiety is the fear of a thought or an idea as opposed to something that is happening in physical reality.

Alex:

And because it's a fear of a thought or an idea, we never actually get the opportunity to fight or run away from whatever it is that is evoking the stress response in us. So instead we'll try to do the mental gymnastics of fighting or running away in the form of avoidance or emotional suppression. Those would be examples of fleeing mentally and emotionally, or fighting in the form of obsession and rumination and trying to figure it out, and trying to figure it out, and trying to figure it out and anticipating. And the unfortunate thing about both of those is that they don't actually give us the opportunity to confront this imaginary danger, this imaginary tiger that we've made up within our own heads. So anxiety different from fear in the way that it's a fear of a thought or an idea as opposed to something in physical reality.

Alex:

And when we look at a lot of the patterns of behaviors that higher functioning women, entrepreneurs, ceos, are struggling with. They aren't necessarily things like agoraphobia or OCD or panic disorder. Sometimes that's the case, but more often than not there are these very subtle and sneaky ways that I've witnessed. My clients experience anxiety and that can be primarily in the form of imposter syndrome in the professional space as well as within their personal relationships, codependency, in their family relationships and within their friendships, within their romantic relationships. And then perfectionism tends to kind of like move across the board, and I think the one big pattern that is really present in all three of those things is that there is this almost like this compulsive need to attempt to control the way that others see us, in an effort to create some illusion of safety and security inside of ourselves. But the anxiety within codependency and posture syndrome, perfectionism, is something that exists exclusively within our own heads. As it pertains to other people, there's nothing that's as uncertain to us as what could possibly be going through another person's head and how they could possibly be perceiving us. So a lot of these different dysfunctional cognitive patterns arise through trying to maintain some sense of control over this thing that is fundamentally uncontrollable, which is the way that others perceive us, so I think that may have gotten a little tangential. But where I really saw this in myself was that when I got past the point of having like really severe anxiety or really severe depression, depression was like the big thing that I struggled with.

Alex:

When I first started my neuroscience and mental health journey.

Alex:

I was noticing that just being able to get my head above the water, just being able to function day to day, was actually not enough for me to have the peace of mind and the peace of heart that I wanted.

Alex:

My relationships were still a disaster. I think that every man that I dated before 2017 probably deserves like a handwritten apology for like what a nightmare I was and how like controlling and codependent I was in relationships I had like paralyzing, imposter syndrome and fear in the professional space. I was really young when I started my professional journey as a mindfulness teacher and leader and I started teaching when I was 18 and I used to lie to my students all the time about how old I was, because I really wanted them to take me seriously and I really wanted them to respect me and just like all these different little subtle, sneaky ways that I still was experiencing a lot of distress in my own life through things that were not these overt manifestations of anxiety but instead were a little more subtle fear based patterning. I think it's important that we have conversations about the sneaky ways that it shows up, not just talking about the more obvious ones.

Bindi:

Oh, my god, I love this so much so I can so relate to literally everything that you just said. So I remember, like, of course, when I was quite young, I did suffer from like more classic conventional signs and symptoms of like anxiety and panic attacks and depression. You know, I think when that anxiety just got a little burnt out, it just turned into, yeah, just really perpetually low mood and depression, low energy, and you know, I was really happy and pleased and proud, you know, to have overcome that at a young age and so kind of from that I couldn't really relate to the experience of anxiety. So I thought, you know, in these conventional terms, like I wasn't having panic attacks, I wasn't, you know, so debilitated by depression that I couldn't get out of bed, and so I just thought that I was mentally really well and really vibrant all the time.

Bindi:

Little did I know that I actually just got really clever at how I expressed the anxiety right, and my mind was so clever that instead of it showing up as a panic attack, it would be my heart racing before a work meeting. So I was so afraid of being, you know, seen as an imposter. So I remember stumbling upon this like cute little graphic on Instagram. It was like signs of high functioning anxiety and I felt so called out by all of these things that you've shared of like the perfectionism, the codependency, the control, the hyper independence, the you know imposter syndrome, all of these things. So I would love to hear let's get into, maybe, perfectionism first what is perfectionism? What's going on in our brains when we're experiencing it?

Alex:

So I love to begin talking about perfectionism by looking at evolutionary biology, because I think it's really important to acknowledge that right. All three of these things that we've just touched on imposter syndrome, codependency, perfectionism they all happen in relation to other people, and the reason why is because our connection and relationships with other human beings were an integral part of our survival as a species. If you, thousands and thousands of years ago, were excommunicated from your tribe, if you were alone on the savannah, you were extremely vulnerable to predation and extremely vulnerable to the elements like to really bad storms and getting struck by lightning and like all these other things. So just as much as avoiding predators and finding food and finding water was an essential part of human survival, we have this very hardwired facet of our biology that is compelling us to be in connection and be in community with other people. It's so strong that one of the things that is an essential part of regulating our nervous system and transitioning from a sympathetic state to a parasympathetic state is oxytocin that like love hormone or cuddle hormone or I mean it does so much more than love and cuddling but literally like making eye contact with other people, getting like a pat on the back, feeling like you're giving support or receiving support. That is an essential part of nervous system regulation, because we need other people. We need to be connected to other people in order to feel safe. There are a few individuals who don't actually need that in order to feel safe and we like refer to them as like psychopaths and sociopaths. It's like there's something seriously wrong if you don't actually need other people in order to feel safe and survive.

Alex:

So perfectionism from an evolutionary perspective, it has its roots in kind of compelling us to manipulate and manage the image that other people have of us so that they see us as being acceptable enough to continue belonging in the tribe and this is a psychological phenomenon. That's also true in imposter syndrome, and they stem from what is known as the looking glass self concept, which is basically just a fancy way of saying that part of what formulates our sense of self who we think we need to be, how we think we need to be is formed through how we assume other people are seeing us. So knowing or assuming that others see us as good enough or as good contributors to the tribe good hunters, good gatherers, you know, like good mothers, whatever it may be was a really essential part of what helped keep our species alive and moving forward, because thousands of years ago, if you weren't pulling your own weight in the tribe, you might not belong for very long and you would be eliminated from the gene pool. So we've evolved these mechanisms that compel us to try to perfect the image that others see of us in an effort to belong. So modern day like this just comes from this very vulnerable, tender part of ourselves that really just wants to feel accepted and wants to feel like we belong and feels really safe when we're in connection with other people. I think the problem with that which is also true in codependency and imposter syndrome is that it robs us of the ability to actually have the kinds of genuine connections that enable us to feel deeply, deeply safe.

Alex:

Right Like you and I have the great privilege of being here in Bali and being in a community of women where it's like we can share with each other the ugliest, most vulnerable, most horrific, maniacal facets of ourselves, and we know that these women are going to love us and stand by us and accept us, no matter what. There are also huge populations out there where there isn't necessarily that level of transparency that's well received Right, and so there are a lot of ways that we meaning like the general public we hold ourselves back from letting others see the messiness and fallibility that comes with being a human being, because we're afraid of being rejected, because we're afraid of being excommunicated. And what I also want to share in this regard is that this is such a highly unnatural thing to do, and I know you and I have both had this experience in our sister circles where it's like there's something coming up that we want to share and actually saying it out loud feels like the cringiest most, like throw up in your mouth kind of experience like revealing who you really are, how you really feel, what you're inner world is like at any given moment in time for others to witness is terrifying, but that is actually the thing that leads to greater connection than community and belonging, as opposed to trying to uphold this mask and this image of like I've got it all together, don't worry, I've got it figured out. I have all my ducks in a row, like I know my.

Alex:

You know that doesn't actually bring us closer to each other, and you use this word Hi for independence a few times throughout this episode so far, and I think it's worth noting that that is something that a lot of women in particular really struggle with as a coping mechanism, along with perfectionism and posture syndrome, codependency. Right, there's this idea of like well, if I don't need anybody, if I don't let anybody really see me for who I am, if I don't let anybody really love me for who I am, then I don't have to risk the rejection in the first place. And that's not the answer either. You know, we know that, more than almost anything else, social isolation is one of the worst things we could do for physical, mental and emotional health. Right, so it really seems like the answer is greater community and connection. I think there was a second question that you had in there somewhere, but I don't remember what it was.

Bindi:

I don't remember either, we went on something so cool that I'm just like writing it out with you.

Bindi:

Yeah, this makes so much sense and I can so relate to this and you know, it reminds me that there's a very primal part of our nature that is to belong, and that it's actually so intelligent. And I love to reflect on some of these anxious parts of us. You know, the perfectionism, the codependency, the control, the imposter syndrome. Yeah, as intelligent, cute parts of us, it just want to keep us safe. And it's so easy for me to get into the space of like, really judging those parts and I shouldn't be this way and I see that I'm just protective and guarded, but also really seeing it through this really compassionate lens, that this is a really just evolutionary part of me that is designed to keep me safe, to keep me in belonging, and, at the same time, to realize its limitations, that, yes, it keeps me safe from being kicked out of the tribe, but also realizing that that amygdala that's being lit up, those fear responses inside, is not what's going to give me fulfillment and true human connection that I really desire.

Bindi:

So what's the other side of it? You know this. Of course, it keeps us safe, but how does this part of us really hold us back in life?

Alex:

Yeah, well, I think it's worth noting that the way the evolution works, right, it's like whatever is working is working well enough. That will just continue doing that and formulating that. And sometimes there can be what's known as like runaway evolution. And I'll give you a really sad and honestly like kind of disgusting example. But from a genetic perspective, right, like there is a lot of preference for younger women Because younger women are going to be more fertile, and one of the ways that evolution has like this runaway side effect is that that can evolve into pedophilia, which is like sometimes there aren't necessarily these breaks and evolution where we would really really dramatically benefit from them as a species, and I think perfectionism, imposter syndrome are some of those things.

Alex:

Right, it's like being a people pleasing Is something that really behooved us up until a certain point in our evolution as a species. And even when we look at our childhood patterns, right, it's like babies need parents in order to survive. They wouldn't be able to make it past a single day on their own. Because of that, young children evolve this mechanism not evolve in terms of like over millennia, but evolve over the course of their own lifespan and childhood to be pleasing as a form of getting their needs met. There just comes a point when we transition into adulthood where that's not something that we actually need anymore. Like being pleasing is not the thing that actually gets our needs met, and when we continue to act in those ways, it just it just gets in the way instead.

Alex:

Right, because, as I mentioned before, I am of the belief that what most of us really want is to be seen and understood and loved and chosen and accepted For who we are and how we are, and we rob ourselves of the ability to receive any of those things when we're in our hyper independence, when we're in our perfectionism, when we're trying to manipulate or mold the image that somebody else sees of us in such a way that it's not inclusive of all of our fallibilities and flaws and humaneness. I really believe that most of us want to know that we will be chosen no matter what, like in all of our ugliness and messiness and tenderness. We don't actually get the opportunity to do that when we keep ourselves separate from others through trying to change the way that they see us through these masks and filters of perfectionism, and through acting in ways that are in alignment with imposter syndrome, for example.

Bindi:

Wow, this is so huge. Absolutely, yeah, it sounds like these parts of us, you know, the perfectionism, like these really high functioning anxiety traits or qualities. They're designed to keep us safe, but in doing so they keep us small and they keep us stuck and I know that's so and separate. I love the s's of that, the three s's so cute.

Bindi:

But yeah, I just I can so see that and so relate to that. So let's chat a bit about. You mentioned about codependency as well, and I know that this is a bit of a buzzword out there right now, just in, like the personal growth, you know, mental health, spaces of codependency. So, in your words, like what is codependency first of all?

Alex:

Okay, well, not in my words, but in the words that I think are the most profound, is literally the textbook definition of codependency which, for whatever reason, has become so skewed over the last, you know, 20, 30 years or whatever. The actual definition of codependency is self neglect at the expense of caretaking another person. Period, that's it Like. Codependency is self-neglect at the expense of caretaking another person. And the funny thing is that caretaking doesn't have to actually be caretaking. It doesn't mean that you're necessarily caring for a parent who is dying of some terminal illness, or caring for a friend that just had a baby, or any of those things.

Alex:

Usually, the thing that codependent individuals are caretaking is an imaginary problem that they've made up on behalf of a person that they love, and that problem can be something to be effective the way that they see you, the codependent, like, for example, they don't think that I'm good enough, or they don't love me enough, or they see me as being very meaty or clingy or any of these other things, and then immediately going in and trying to caretake that perception that they have of you. So that could be a perception that they truly have of you, or it could be a perception that you've made up on their behalf, and it's almost like this fantasy or like illusory pattern of behavior and thinking that we participate in, where we have this idea that we actually can, through our actions and words and behaviors, have any sort of control over what the other people see in us anyway, which is usually not the case, and this isn't something that just shows up in romantic relationships, although I think that that's what people immediately think of. When they hear the word codependency, people usually think about like a super young, like new couple that's super in love and glued at the hip, or they think about where this word originated from, which was in the context of recovery communities, like the family members and friends who are participating in enabling behaviors to alcoholics or addicts, were considered codependents. So those are really like the two facets that I think people immediately think of when they think codependency. They think about the family members and friends of alcoholics and addicts, where they think about young lovers glued at the hip.

Alex:

But codependent patterns of behavior, really any patterns of behavior where we're trying to control the other person, trying to manage the other person's emotions on their behalf, trying it to almost like subconsciously and unconsciously, or maybe sometimes overly play these games of being so careful with our word choices and our actions and behaviors that we won't evoke an emotional response out of the other person, that we won't upset them, that we won't make them mad at us, that we won't hurt them or that they won't see us as being any way other than how we want them to see us.

Alex:

And again that gets in the way of genuine connection and the safety that's required to regulate our nervous systems. Because then we're constantly in this state of trying to mitigate the uncertainty which circles all the way back to this definition of anxiety. Right, it's like trying to control the inevitable uncertainty that comes with not knowing what's going on in another person's head, which we'll never actually have access to anyway. So it just becomes this self-perpetuating cycle where we're constantly trying to assume control, assume control, mitigate, manipulate the circumstances in such a way that we could feel safe. But it's like this fruitless exercise in futility.

Bindi:

Does that?

Alex:

make sense.

Bindi:

Yeah, 100%. I love the distinction between the standard definition in recovery work, which I haven't related so much to myself, or this more modern definition. I just love that definition that you shared of just the self-neglect in the caretaking of another person. I'd love for us to give some examples, and I have the first one because I had a codependent situation this morning that I'll share.

Bindi:

So, some of us actually Alex, my partner, me, a bunch of our girlfriends here in Bali we have this app that I think every group of friends should have is called how we Feel, and inside of this app our friends will do like little check-ins, little emotional check-ins. So right now, one friend is feeling anxious, one's overwhelmed, one's happy, one feels excited, one feels angry. And anyway, this morning my partner, teo, checked in with the feeling that he's feeling angry, right, and there was no explanation as to why he was angry, it was just angry. And the anxiety, the very subtle anxiety that rose up in me as I read his check-in that he's angry. My mind immediately went to what did I do wrong, right, what did I do to cause that anxiety? I'm like going back through the last 24 hours how did I screw up? How did I make him angry? How is this my fault? And kind of going down this like mini little spiral of how it must be my fault that he's angry and it's.

Bindi:

There's an intelligence in that, right, and I know like growing up, my father struggled with a lot of anger issues and the anger was not just an expression of anger, it was anger equals violence and anger equals me getting physically harmed. And so I'm very hyper aware and hyper attuned to the emotions of other people and I can hear you know, it's almost as though I can hear the emotional expression in another person, based on, like, how they open the door, like I could remember the sound of my dad's keys when he was unlocking the door to get into the house. I knew in that moment how angry he was or how calm he was and how I should behave as a response to that, to kind of manipulate the situation to keep him calm so that I can feel safe. So a little mini version of that happened this morning where you know he was feeling angry, which is a very natural human emotion that every single one of us experiences. But I made it about me and the codependency in that was that, of course, when I was interacting with him this morning I was kind of on these egg shells and like how can I behave in a certain way and neglect my own feelings, my own joy that I was feeling, and kind of get on the same page of his anger to not trigger it, to keep myself safe?

Bindi:

Now the manipulation in it for me is that I couldn't be with his anger and I couldn't just accept that. Oh, maybe he's just. He had a busy day yesterday and he didn't sleep and he's just feeling grumpy and irritable because his nervous system is a little bit tired from a busy day and four hours in traffic yesterday on a motorbike. But my manipulation in it I think this is one of the sneaky things of codependency is that I, as you know, someone that struggles with codependencies. I feel like I need to, and this is not conscious, I'm not thinking this, but this is the subconscious expression of it. For me anyway, is how can I manipulate and change their feelings so that I can feel okay and I can feel safe? How can I change his anger and make him feel okay so that I can feel okay around him? So can you tell us a little bit more about that, alex? What's going on in that?

Alex:

Well, I think that that is just stereotypical textbook definition of codependency and I really think that you illustrated that example perfectly, bindi. And what I can share from my own personal experience is that when I was a child, there was a lot of death in my family, and how that evolved into some codependency for me is that I could not handle anybody being angry at me or set with me. I couldn't even handle my own anger or upset towards anybody else because I had this persistent fear of what if this is the last time I see them Like what if this person dies next or this person dies next? And something that's also very stereotypical of codependence is that they really struggle with setting boundaries. So throughout my teenage years and early into adulthood, before I really dove down this path of healing my codependency, what that looked like was zero boundaries with my family and tolerating really unacceptable behavior. For me it was more verbal than physical, but really unacceptable verbal behavior from certain family members because I could not handle the discomfort of their anger or upset at me. Asserting a boundary and saying you can't talk to me like this, like this kind of language, is completely unacceptable and I'm going to hang up the phone now if you continue to speak to me this way, I couldn't do it for a really long time because I couldn't be with the uncertainty and the unknown of are they going to be mad at me? How long are they going to be mad at me? So a lot of codependence will find themselves in these situations where they're avoiding the emotional reactions of other people. And you touched on something which I think is really important to note as it pertains to codependency, which is that a lot of codependent people, they really pride themselves on their altruistic behavior of like I'm so loving, I'm so caring, I'm so in service, I'm so devoted to the people that are in my life. I'm the best friend ever. I am always there for the people who are in my life.

Alex:

And when it comes to codependency, usually that really comes from this very selfish place of our own inability to be with the discomfort of another person, right?

Alex:

So it's like we're trying to manipulate the way that they feel so that we don't have to be with our discomfort. That is really at the root of it. And there are certain situations and circumstances where this is a survival strategy, right, like if you are in a violent situation, then becoming very attuned to the sound of the keys that are in the door is a survival strategy, so that you can protect yourself and keep yourself safe. The problem is that for you, bindi, and for me in adulthood, is that that doesn't help us anymore, because we actually do have the power now, as adults, to choose what relationships are and are not truly safe for us to be in. But when we're bringing our old patterning and conditioning into these relationships of hypervigilance and constantly scanning for where there might be upset and how we can avoid it and how we can tiptoe around it and like walking on eggshells, we really do ourselves and I think the people around us are, disservice by being really inauthentic in our relationships, and that, again, is something that creates more disconnect than connection.

Bindi:

Gosh, I love this so much and I can so relate to that. Of course, a big word that like keeps coming up for me is like, even with the intention and for so long, I could so relate to, like the altruism of it. I'm like, I'm such a good friend, I'm so there for people, and I think one of the shadows of compassion and empathy can actually be manipulation, and this is what I, what I've noticed through my own personal growth, work and shadow work, is actually like, like you said, this illusion of control that I can, through being an amazing friend and always being there for them, you know, kind of protect the image that they hold of me so that I can feel okay about myself and I you know so natural to outsource my felt sense of self worth into the feeling, the opinions of the people around me.

Bindi:

And this is where you know the difference between being nice and being kind comes in. You know of like. What's nice is being the people pleaser and overextending and saying yes when your body says no. You know being in that more people pleasing spot. That's what's nice. But nice is not what's what's kind. Right, what's kind is saying the honest, authentic, genuine truth. What's kind is being integrity and being in honesty, even if you know it upsets someone. And that's been a huge process for me of really refining the subtle differences between what's nice and what's kind. What would you say to that?

Alex:

Have you ever heard of Steve Chandler? Are you familiar with his work? No, I'm so obsessed with him. He is like the grandfather of modern day life coaching, and he has this amazing teaching on the difference between pleasing and being of service, and he'll often say that when we're participating in people pleasing behaviors, it is the antithesis of truly being of service. And I think, from a professional standpoint, this shows up in our professional relationships too. Right, it's like if you're just telling your clients what they want to hear, you're not actually serving them. Well, right, like if you went into a doctor's office and the doctor was like oh, you know, like your blood work looks like this, but really everything's fine, it's okay. Like you know, like you don't want your doctor to be trying to be friends with you and, please see, you want them to be like it's time to get your together and there are some serious changes you need to make. And so what I would say to that is in my experience, the people in my life would choose truth and honesty any day over me, trying to pacify them and soothe their emotions on their behalf, and what that also has required of me is a willingness to receive truth instead, and it is ruling at times to have reflections given to me of how I'm showing up and how I'm behaving and to be truly called out on my bullsh**, but I would choose that any day over friendships and romantic relationships that are not holding me to the caliber of woman and teacher and leader and coach that I truly want to be. So there's a piece of it that like really sucks when you're in the process of it, but I think ultimately it does benefit and serve our relationships so much more. And knowing that vibrant you is focused on physical health.

Alex:

What I want to touch on as well is that the region of the brain that's associated in all of this, like all these things that we've been talking about, they all dramatically impact our hypothalamus.

Alex:

Hypothalamus is responsible for what's known as the four Fs in the world of neuroscience. They're fighting, feeding, fleeing and reproduction. So you can fill in that fourth F with my personal favorite F word. But it's really important to acknowledge that the same part of our brain that's regulating our fight or flight, stress response, which all of these things are involved in right, like codependency and control, anxiety, uncertainty, imposter syndrome, like perfectionism All of these things evoke a stress response in our body, that's the same part of our brain that is then subsequently going to be playing a role in regulating our reproductive cycles that fourth F but also our hunger response and the way that our body initiates its process of digesting and assimilating food right. So I think it's really important that we touch on the fact that these are not just these purely cognitive concepts that are floating around within the container of our own head, but they're very real, physical, physiological impacts that all of these things are having on our health too.

Bindi:

I love so much that you mentioned that, and I think this is where in like integrative health and in the industry that I'm in, we can't have vibrant health and well-being without also working on our mind, our emotions, our nervous system. Because it is so connected and this is a conversation I have with my clients every single day.

Bindi:

You know the we call it like the HPO access or the HPA access, like the hypothalamus pituitary ovary connection or the hypothalamus pituitary adrenal connection, and how we can't truly step into the deepest level of healing and rebalance our hormones and reduce cortisol and, you know, get our periods back, conceive all of these important functions without addressing this stuff going on in between our ears. You know these subtle, sneaky forms of anxiety that are showing up for us and keeping our body in a level of fight or flight. I love that you shared about that. So let's get into in just our last couple minutes here. I'd love to just get into some some practicals of the woman that does experience, you know, a level of high functioning anxiety and she's kind of feeling a little called out with this episode. She's like, oh God, yeah, that's me the perfectionist. The people, please, are imposter syndrome. What are some practical strategies? What can we do about this?

Alex:

So I think the very first thing that I will give to any client that I'm working with is to get really, truly present. And that doesn't mean that you need to be living in this enlightened state of bliss bubble all the time, but literally from moment to moment, when you notice yourself getting kind of pulled into these streams of thought where you're really, really concerned with what other people think about you, you're really concerned about whether or not somebody's mad at you, you're getting those like pangs of guilt or fear or anxiety in your stomach when you think about a challenging conversation that you have to have or presentation that you have to give at work. I think the first thing is to get really present, and that's important because, as we talked about at the very beginning of this episode, anxiety only exists in relation to our thoughts and ideas about future events or experiences or hypotheticals. Fear is an appropriate reaction to danger that's actually happening right here and right now, and the reality is, most of the time, this present moment is extremely, extremely safe. So I think recalibrating your mind and your body back to the safety of this moment is incredibly important. You're coming back to your five senses and if that is something as obvious as saying to yourself out loud, or thinking to yourself within your own head, what you see, hear, feel, smell, taste. That is a phenomenal way to get present. Even if you're like whatever that's too hippy, at the very least that's something that's disrupting your normal pattern of thinking that will pull you into the downward spiral of all these different manifestations of anxiety that we've been speaking about today.

Alex:

So number one is getting your mind attuned to the present moment. I love working with the breath, so taking long, slow exhales, specifically exhales that are longer than your inhales, are really important ways that you can start to shift into more of a parasympathetic state. And, on that note, the third tool that I would give is to be in connection with other people and start doing things that are going to get your oxytocin flowing, because, again, oxytocin is one of those things that enables us to transition from that sympathetic fight or flight stress response into that parasympathetic, rest and digest, relaxation response. So some of the things that can produce oxytocin are safe, loving, physical touch, and I think that safe, loving piece is really important because there are some people out there, through prior experiences that they've had, don't experience touch as safe or loving, so that's something you need to do a little bit of work on first, before touch, feel safe to you, then I'm going to encourage you to get some support by another professional to do so. But safe, loving, physical touch, making eye contact with people. One of the homework assignments that I'll give to clients sometimes is to literally like the next time they go to the grocery store, try to smile and make eye contact at five people. Or if you have friends that you feel really close with that you can just like cuddle up with on the couch, or if you have a partner who will scratch your back for you or really like any sort of physical contact that feels safe and loving is really good. Eye contact is really good.

Alex:

I already mentioned that volunteering is something that can release oxytocin. Giving support and receiving support is something that releases oxytocin as well. So if you are in a really emotional or vulnerable state, actually calling a friend and reaching out and saying like, hey, I'm really struggling with something right now is enough to start to get your oxytocin levels flowing. And, likewise, being the friend who's like, hey, how are you doing Everything okay over there? Do you need support with anything? Do you need help with anything? Ideally not in a codependent way, but reaching out to connect and support somebody else in that way can be really helpful. Also definitely worth noting orgasms are a great way to release oxytocin right, because uterine contractions especially for women, uterine contractions release oxytocin. That's one of the reasons why moms feel so bonded to their babies is because when they're in labor, those are massive uterine contractions. And then I know this is one that you're personally a fan of, bindi but any little creature with like a disproportionately round head to eye ratio, like puppies and kittens and babies, like being around them, touching them, holding them, petting them, like that's something that can release oxytocin as well.

Alex:

And then I think the fourth piece that I would really give listeners today is to really look at is there anything in my life that I'm withholding? Are there any secrets that I'm keeping right now? And to out yourself on those things. So to find somebody that you feel really safe and comfortable with, who you can make the explicit request like hey, I have something that I want to share with you and my request is that you know you don't give me feedback, you don't give me a reflection, you don't judge me or criticize me. I'm not looking for advice here. I really just want to get this off of my chest To out yourself on the things that you have been holding inside and really let yourself be seen and heard in your vulnerability and humanness.

Alex:

As it pertains to imposter syndrome and perfectionism, the one piece of research that has consistently proven over and over again to help with those things is talking to other people about it. Imposter syndrome and perfectionism function through this psychological mechanism known as pluralistic ignorance, which is basically just a fancy way of saying that those of us who struggle with those things tend to believe that we're really alone in it and that we're the only ones that are experiencing these things. So as soon as we begin to talk about it with other people and give voice to it, that immediately begins to dispel some of the grip and hold that these things have on us. So those are four very practical and pragmatic ways that I think listeners can get started on these things.

Bindi:

I love that so much. My main takeaways are like kittens and community, the route to easing our anxiety is kittens and community. I just live in a constant state of oxytocin around my cats Anyone that?

Bindi:

listens, knows that I have two delicious belly cats.

Bindi:

They're luxurious, they're silky, they're velvety, they're so soft, their eyes are so big and even thinking about them, I can feel the oxytocin release in my body right now.

Bindi:

I can smell them and I'm so obsessed with my cats and the role of community as well and having those safe spaces to share Communities where friendships like you and I have Alex, where we can call each other out and we can hear those tricky spots, literally. Alex and I were in a grocery store like two days ago and I shared with her some really shamy, cringy thoughts that I was having about a friend, a really unexpected text message that I got from a previous friend that I experienced a deep betrayal from. And yeah, it's for me to expose my really angry, cringy parts and I'm like I don't want Alex to think that I'm crazy around my psychopath, as I was sharing these thoughts and she's just so peacefully nodding along as though it was the most normal thing ever that I was expressing my anger and hatred Not that this is the full truth, but it was a part and having that part of me seen so helpful and so supportive.

Alex:

So yeah, kittens and community, the thing is it's not psycho, right, it's like yeah, the breath of human emotion isn't psycho, and there's this saying in the world of recovery and it's we're only as sick as our secrets and a lot of these things that we feel embarrassed or ashamed to reveal to other people.

Alex:

They fester when we keep them in secrecy, but as soon as you bring them to light, it's like no, you're just another fallible human being, just like the rest of us, and something that I also offer to my clients all the time, right, is I'm like okay, great, thank you so much for sharing with me all these things. Let's play a little game called how weird can I let it be? How weird can I be? Like? How much of your what you deem as being like crazy or unlovable or strange or awkward about yourself, can you bring to the table before scaring someone away? And maybe you do scare someone away, that's totally a possibility, but guess what? That person was not supposed to be a part of your life anyway. Right, and more we give other people the opportunity to bear witness to what we deem as being crazy or awkward or cringy, the sooner we come into connection with the people who can really love us and accept us in the fullness of our human experience.

Bindi:

And the intimacy and connection that's born from that, just from that honest, genuine, vulnerable thing.

Bindi:

What does Brene Brown say? Right, that the antidote of shame is exposure and that we can really heal a lot of the shame that we hold and the isolation and in the feelings that we have, you know, the things that go on in our mind that we want to reject within ourselves, let alone show to anyone else, and that so much of that is just like neutralized and healed and transformed through the loving, compassionate, empathetic exposure to another person that has done. I will like kind of just side note that that has done a level of self development work where they're able to hold that and that they're not going to take that on, they're not going to make that mean something about them, they're not going to project it back onto you. But yeah, having just conscious friendships like that in communities, so invaluable, so well, my love, I think this is a great space for us to start to wrap up. So I've got a little rapid fire, little hot tip three questions for you. Are you ready?

Alex:

Mm, hmm.

Bindi:

Okay, so the first question for you is what is the number one thing that people can do to improve their wellness today?

Alex:

This is probably not what my usual answer is, but it's really present right now which is orgasm. They're, I'm actually getting ready to record an episode of talk nerdy to me on the biology and physiology of pleasure, and the more that I am getting all of my notes together for that episode, the more I'm like wow. There's this phenomenal neurotransmitter called nitric oxide that's released when we're in pleasure, not just from orgasm, but also from anything that gives us pleasure, be it really fun music or food. And the more that we're in pleasure, the better it is for our physical, mental and emotional health. So right now, today, the answer is orgasm.

Bindi:

I love that when you, when you were answering that you're like I'm just getting ready to it, I'm like, oh, Alex, are you getting ready?

Alex:

to orgasm. I'm just getting ready.

Bindi:

I feel like that's amazing. I love this and here and you share that I'm like we need to do a part two. We need to do another episode on orgasms and just like the magic and the neuroscience of orgasms and all the benefits of them.

Alex:

I would love that so much. I've actually been dreaming about doing an episode on what's happening in your brain when you have an orgasm. So loose, I'm like nobody really knows, but there's some research coming out now, so we can definitely do that.

Bindi:

Okay, I love that. That's our part two. Stay tuned, everyone. Okay. Second question for you is what is your personal number one secret to living a vibrant life? Maybe it's orgasms.

Alex:

Also orgasms, and no, I'm just kidding I feel so grateful for the friends that I have in my life. Like it's taken me a really long time because I had that hyper independent isolation I'm better when I'm alone kind of mentality going on but I feel like I'm finally at a point in my life where I have some great men in my life too, but the women in particular I really trust to give me feedback and show me the things that I can't see in myself, that hold me to a higher level of integrity that I would then I would be able to on my own. So, yeah, I think it's community, it's connection.

Bindi:

I love that so so much, so powerful. And then tell us what is the number one book that if the entire world read it, the world would just be a happier, healthier, better overall place.

Alex:

I love this question. There's so many that I want to share. I think one of the most transformational books for me was this book called my Stroke of Insight by Dr Jill Bulty Taylor, and she is this phenomenal neuroscientist and author who she had a stroke in the left hemisphere of her brain and was basically in this ethereal state of blissfulness, oneness, wholeness, unity with everything and everyone around her, because your left brain hemisphere is the side that's responsible for creating division and separation. So she basically was living in this state of nirvana during her stroke and then she began to heal and through the process of healing, she got to be very selective in terms of how much of that blissfulness she brought back into her everyday life.

Alex:

And I think that that's a really powerful book in demonstrating the level of autonomy and sovereignty we have over our minds and our lives. I really believe that so many of our problems are things that we make up in our own heads. We really put a lot of arbitrary obstacles in our own way, and that book, I think, is such a powerful reminder that we always have choices, but what's required for choices is self-awareness and remembering that we're the ones that have power in the first place. So that book really changed my life and I highly recommend it.

Bindi:

Oh, I love that. I'm going to link that up in the show notes. I think that's such a good one. I want to read it. Well, my love, tell us how can our community connect with you? Where is the best place to connect?

Alex:

Well, if, you want to talk nerdy to me, you can join me over on Spotify or Apple Podcast. I did an amazing episode a few months back with Bindi, all about hormonal health and how that impacts your cognitive well-being, so I highly recommend listening to Talk Nerdy to Me, since you're already over here in Podcast Land. I'm on Instagram at Alex, underscore nashten, and I'm not always taking on new coaching clients, but when I am, there is an application for a complimentary 90-minute call with me. I select people from that application pool to come into a complimentary conversation with me when I am taking on new clients, which isn't all the time, so the best place to get on the wait list for that is through whatever link I send Bindi that she will subsequently put in the show notes.

Bindi:

Oh, amazing. Yeah, we will link all of that up, and everyone has to listen to Talk Nerdy to Me, and I'll link up the episode that we did together as well. I think that'd be super fun. So thank you so much again, Han. I just I love you so much and I am so in awe of just your knowledge and your wisdom and your personal experiences and insights that you shared with me. So thank you so so much again for being here.

Alex:

Oh, I love you too, Bindi. Thanks for having me. It's been such a joy.

Bindi:

Thanks so much for listening. If you loved today's episode, please spread the love by subscribing and leaving a review, or if there's someone in your life that you think could benefit from this conversation, please share this episode with them. I would love to hear from you over on Instagram at Bindi Stables, or visit my website, bindestablescom, to connect and work with me. Thank you so much again for being here, and I'm celebrating you in this journey of becoming the happiest, the healthiest, most vibrant you.